Durham & Northumberland Rugby Forum

League Rugby => Durham & Northumberland One => Topic started by: TheGuv on April 15, 2018, 11:41:22 AM

Title: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: TheGuv on April 15, 2018, 11:41:22 AM
Well it looks nigh on certain that West Hartlepool, Percy Park and Northern will be relegated into DN1. West and Northern are officially relegated.

It is a sad state of affairs for North East rugby. North One East might only have two DN clubs (Morpeth and probably Durham City) in the league next season as Alnwick look certain to go up and weíre not certain if a DN club will win the play off!

If DN do  lose the play off, there will be a league imbalance of two teams. So what do we think will happen? It seems likely that Guisborough will be level transferred, but weíll still have an imbalance of one. Iíd assume that thereíll be 3 clubs relegated into DN2...

Whatís your thoughts?
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on April 15, 2018, 11:49:22 AM
Two level transfers to Y1
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: local player on April 15, 2018, 11:58:24 AM
Does this seem to be happening more & more?

Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on April 15, 2018, 12:14:49 PM
Does this seem to be happening more & more?

It is a consequence of Guv's observation above about less NE clubs being in NE1. 
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on April 15, 2018, 12:17:21 PM
It does, unfortunately not enough people play rugby up here now. Clubs arenít as strong as a subsequence most clubs have lost one side in the last few years, so no 4ths, 3rds etc.

The best players still migrate to a handful of clubs playing in the nationals but compared to Yorkshire in general we are very weak.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Pit Wheel on April 15, 2018, 12:22:37 PM
So .... West, Percy Park and Northern come down. Acklam and Rockliff come up ....

City win the league and Barney/Consett/Westoe lose the playoff.

Gosforth and Redcar go down.

Boro also have the choice to be level transferred back I believe (correct me if Iím wrong). So letís assume theyíll take that opportunity.

West
Percy Park
Northern
Boro
Barney
Consett
Westoe
Horden
Gateshead
Guisborough
Rovers
Stockton
Novos
Medicals
Ponteland
Acklam
Rockliff

So we need rid of 3 of those 17 teams. Boro and Acklam can't go because they've been level transferred recently and are exempt.

I make it Guisborough, Stockton and West! Ouch!

But is there a chance Barney could be sucked into it? Thereís also the chance Whitby could overtake Rockliff and condemn themselves to life in Y1.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on April 15, 2018, 12:35:08 PM
So .... West, Percy Park and Northern come down. Acklam and Rockliff come up ....

City win the league and Barney/Consett/Westoe lose the playoff.

Gosforth and Redcar go down.

Boro also have the choice to be level transferred back I believe (correct me if Iím wrong). So letís assume theyíll take that opportunity.

West
Percy Park
Northern
Boro
Barney
Consett
Westoe
Horden
Gateshead
Guisborough
Rovers
Stockton
Novos
Medicals
Ponteland
Acklam
Rockliff

So we need rid of 3 of those 17 teams. Boro and Acklam can't go because they've been level transferred recently and are exempt.

I make it Guisborough, Stockton and West! Ouch!

But is there a chance Barney could be sucked into it? Thereís also the chance Whitby could overtake Rockliff and condemn themselves to life in Y1.

I agree with most of the above except believe Barney will have a lower total mileage than West.  However should Barney get promoted as champions (looking less likely) then West would be in the mix.

Whitby getting promoted would probably put them in a position to be level transferred. 

Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on April 15, 2018, 12:43:12 PM
I think there will be a few clubs hoping Whitby snaffle the number 2 spot and claim one of the level transfer spots!
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Passed it on April 15, 2018, 05:35:18 PM
Never thought I would see the chance of Whitby being in Y1, they would find it tough in Y2
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Hit Man Hall on April 16, 2018, 08:35:05 PM
Y1 is a tough league as is NE1 with more travelling and extra costs, Y1 may be a better placement there is less chance of promotion to NE1, one season hopefully surviving in Y1 then use the rule to automatically transfer back to DN1, the experience in Y1 would put you in a better place for the return to DN1. BUT with all the experience of Y1 you could end up getting promoted to NE1. Most promotions end up coming right back down the following year anyway!

Phew who want promotion to NE1?
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: olfaithful on April 17, 2018, 09:31:51 AM
Having had a couple of seasons in N1E, yes the travel can be a problem with some player availability issues (we are only amateurs after all), a major problem is injuries.
The opposition are much bigger and frankly skillfull as well and you get big hits in the tackles.
Lost quite a few players in 2 years with serious injuries. A big squad is deffo a requirement in N1E.
Any club transferred to Y1 will find the same travel and time issues especially across to West Yorks.
I played (many years ago before leagues) in East Yorks and the travel across to say, Halifax (before Motorways) was always a problem with 11 am starts.
Still remember many times having to change on the bus whilst still travelling. Oh what fun - wish I was still a player.
Anyone considered the possible issue of say 2 clubs transferred to Y1 then getting relegated to Div 2 and then transferred back to DN - Div 2
DN2 could then have 14 clubs in it and Y2 only 10 !!!!
Presume more clubs would have to be relegated (??? or not) and also 2 more promoted from Y3 to Y2.
Anyway, the North Organising Committee will sort it out "for the good of the game"
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on April 17, 2018, 10:02:00 AM
I think there will be a few clubs hoping Whitby snaffle the number 2 spot and claim one of the level transfer spots!

While Whitby and Guisboro' won't like the travel implications outlined by olfaithful above there is a certain appropriateness in clubs geographically in Yorkshire transferring to a Yorkshire league.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: TheGuv on April 17, 2018, 10:06:18 AM
Olfaithful, you've raised some pertinent points.

As a side note, my dad an I have compiled a detailed and comprehensive report into the health of senior rugby in the North East. This is based on DN clubs' league standings since the start of league rugby.

Following this weekend's league results which have seen Northern and West Hartlepool relegated, and Percy Park on the brink, we have sent the report to the county, rather than wait for the end of the (elongated) season.

The report is rather rough around the edges, as we wanted to send it off ASAP. However, we think it paints a good picture, albeit bleak, of how the overall position of our clubs in the leagues is diminishing.

I personally hope it could see some change, or at least start a discussion, as to how rugby is being played in the North East...
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Exciled Dragon on April 17, 2018, 10:34:29 AM
Rather than transferring teams to the Yorkshire league, particularly if one of them is going to be travelling from Hartlepool, an alternative would be rebalancing the numbers in the DN divisions. DN3 currently only has 11 active teams.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on April 17, 2018, 11:14:57 AM
Rather than transferring teams to the Yorkshire league, particularly if one of them is going to be travelling from Hartlepool, an alternative would be rebalancing the numbers in the DN divisions. DN3 currently only has 11 active teams.

So are you proposing to the RFU there is

1 less (or no) level transfer from DN1 to Y1
2 something happens to plug the gap(s) in Y1
3 more relegation from DN1 to DN2 to DN3
4 something else
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Exciled Dragon on April 17, 2018, 12:54:25 PM
Rather than transferring teams to the Yorkshire league, particularly if one of them is going to be travelling from Hartlepool, an alternative would be rebalancing the numbers in the DN divisions. DN3 currently only has 11 active teams.

So are you proposing to the RFU there is

1 less (or no) level transfer from DN1 to Y1
2 something happens to plug the gap(s) in Y1
3 more relegation from DN1 to DN2 to DN3
4 something else

1 and 3. I don't see why any gaps in Y1 should involve Durham clubs.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Pit Wheel on April 20, 2018, 08:50:30 AM
Something else to throw in to the mix .... itís looking like the playoff will be played at a Durham Club rather than Yorkshire.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on April 20, 2018, 02:51:44 PM
After last nights result at Consett it looks like both clubs (Consett and City) will probably end up on 111 points. Any club in the play off will have the second leg at home on that basis and it's most likely to be Scarboro.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on April 20, 2018, 03:44:37 PM
After last nights result at Consett it looks like both clubs (Consett and City) will probably end up on 111 points. Any club in the play off will have the second leg at home on that basis and it's most likely to be Scarboro.

Second leg at home?  Thought it was a one off game?
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Pit Wheel on April 20, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Aye itís always been one leg hasnít it ....
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: davebarnes on April 20, 2018, 04:04:36 PM
One leg - Team with best results have home advantage
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on April 20, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
that woke a few up!!!
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: bleeptest on April 20, 2018, 05:44:32 PM
Difficult game for City tomorrow against Horden after a physical encounter last night
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: TheGuv on October 21, 2018, 01:07:28 PM
A meeting was held on a Tuesday at Morpeth about the RFU Northís review.

Did anyone attend?

Cumbria apparently want to join DN...

You need to get your clubsí voices heard. If you donít. Itíll only get worse
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on October 21, 2018, 01:17:26 PM
Iím attending on 6th November at City
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: TheGuv on October 21, 2018, 01:33:15 PM
Iíd argue you now have 4-5 counties in North of England whose clubs (mostly) are not happy with the current RFU set up.

Lancashire - some clubs have withdrawn
Cumbria - now want to join us, as their league system is ruined after Lancashire left.
Cheshire - see above
Northumberland and Durham. We know what our issues are.

Change HAS to happen.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Neil Roseberry on October 21, 2018, 01:44:27 PM
Iím attending on 6th November at City

I'll be there as well Les.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on October 21, 2018, 02:33:37 PM
Iíd argue you now have 4-5 counties in North of England whose clubs (mostly) are not happy with the current RFU set up.

Lancashire - some clubs have withdrawn
Cumbria - now want to join us, as their league system is ruined after Lancashire left.
Cheshire - see above
Northumberland and Durham. We know what our issues are.

Change HAS to happen.

Cheshire want to join Durham and Northumberland?
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on October 21, 2018, 02:59:24 PM
Problem is clubs below L7 wouldnít be able to field strong enough sides on journeys over an hour. It happens now if we have to go Redcar or Whitby. Games at Whitehaven or Barrow wouldnít be competitive at all.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: local player on October 21, 2018, 03:55:41 PM
Problem is clubs below L7 wouldnít be able to field strong enough sides on journeys over an hour. It happens now if we have to go Redcar or Whitby. Games at Whitehaven or Barrow wouldnít be competitive at all.

Your spot on Renegade, no suprise the further down the leagues (generally) the smaller the squads.  Asking clubs at the lowest levels to travel across the country (and vice versa) is asking for a large number of cry offs.

Nor sure what the answer is mind.....
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Badgerbear77 on October 21, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
Under no circumstances should we be even considering joining up with Cumbria... We cant get lads to travel an hour away never mind 2 or 3. This will potentially kill of grass roots game in smaller clubs across Durham and Northumberland. For me the answer is to reduce league numbers to about 10 and have meaningful cups - The Cup games could involve more travel as they are one off fixtures and more likely to get lads keen. More cross border cup competitions potentially. RFU north cup for example involving Cumbrian clubs as well as Durham and Northumberland could be interesting at each level.

We cant allow it to happen to bail out the RFU. Lancs have made a stand... Don't let your clubs suffer the fallout.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on October 21, 2018, 05:13:51 PM
I would make the leagues at L8 below very local, practically Durham and Northumberland seperately and like badger said no more than 10 in each division. Looking at the teams that are around at the moment you could have;

DN3 North; Blyth, Seghill, P & S, Border Park, Ravens, Wallsend, West End, Houghton, Jarrovians

DN3 South; Yarm, Seaton Carew, N Aycliffe, Richmond, Tech, Seaham, CLS, Redcar, BBOB

Top two in each league play off with one promoted

DN2 North: Ashington, Gosforth, North Shields, Rock, Winlaton, Ryton, Ponteland, Medicals

DN2 South: Hartlepool, Sedgefield, Darlo, Bishop, Redcar, South Shields, Sunderland, Whitby, Horden

Winners of each league play off, one goes up

DN1; Northern, City, West H, Westoe, Novos, Stockton, Barney, Gateshead, Rovers, Acklam

One up

18 league games and re-do the county cups as a competition thats played during a 4-6 window like the top level do now. Maybe as small leagues then s/f and final. Have a finals day so all games (Cup, Bowl, Plate etc)at 1 venue, consecutively and have things on for families etc to try and increase participation.

It's harder to move between the leagues instead of two up two down as it is now, clubs might start to look beyond just the 1stXV and get 2nd and 3rd teams playing more often. More participation means bigger squads and a stronger game I think it's got to the point where it feels like only the 1st team matters and players have just switched off.....not all clubs but a lot are like this.

Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 21, 2018, 05:18:26 PM
Under no circumstances should we be even considering joining up with Cumbria... We cant get lads to travel an hour away never mind 2 or 3. This will potentially kill of grass roots game in smaller clubs across Durham and Northumberland. For me the answer is to reduce league numbers to about 10 and have meaningful cups - The Cup games could involve more travel as they are one off fixtures and more likely to get lads keen. More cross border cup competitions potentially. RFU north cup for example involving Cumbrian clubs as well as Durham and Northumberland could be interesting at each level.

We cant allow it to happen to bail out the RFU. Lancs have made a stand... Don't let your clubs suffer the fallout.
Lancs made a stand predominantly based on the travel to the far reaches of Cumbria.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Hit Man Hall on October 21, 2018, 06:30:47 PM
I believe this was a topic discussion on another thread, my view was and still is to revert to the proposal the RFU put forward in 2013, I understand that Lancashire were against it but now have broke away into merit leagues at Level 7 and below, I refereed Heaton moor vs Littleborough yesterday and was as good if not better than D&N1, I spoke to a few of the lads who said they found it difficult to travel up to Cumbria so opted for merit leagues with no promotion prospects! Not sure if it would work in D&N or in Cumbria?
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Smoggie on October 23, 2018, 06:02:45 PM
'Cut the leagues, cut the travel'...doesn't anyone want to play rugby between September and April anymore? Cups are no solution as can be seen by the number of cry-offs this season. I feel for the Cumbrian clubs who now have a very limited league due to their Lancastrian neighbours who refused to travel for 2 hours 3 or 4 times a season. Sort of thing you expect from the wrong side of the Pennines though!
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Teessidewire on October 23, 2018, 06:33:18 PM
Sorry, but the fact is that players either donít want to travel or canít travel due to shift work etc. The days when Clubs regularly travelled for 2-3 hours for a game are long gone at this level.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Badgerbear77 on October 23, 2018, 06:56:08 PM
Yes cut the leagues and travel... how many visiting teams stay back longer than an hour anyway. 26 league games is 6 months of rugby... add cups on top and thats where the apathy comes in.

What im talking about is an 18 game league season add in a meaningful county cup with bowl and shield opportunities creates another 3 fixtures minimum. Optuons for traditional friendlies if you want more. A meaningful national cup where youncould play out of area amd probably look forward to a bus trip. The world gentlemen has changed
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Smoggie on October 23, 2018, 11:58:15 PM
The modern player, lovely lads though those I speak to are, seem to think they are the first generation to have jobs and families!
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Neil Roseberry on October 24, 2018, 04:51:35 PM
EXACTLY.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 24, 2018, 05:28:51 PM
The modern player, lovely lads though those I speak to are, seem to think they are the first generation to have jobs and families!
The same ones who think the club magically funds itself and the upkeep is done by the magic fairies so all they have to do is tip up and play - as and when it suits them.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: redredwine on October 25, 2018, 03:06:21 PM
As one who sits the other side of the Pennines ,i.e to the west ,I follow this forum with interest especially we have been levelled transferred between the North East and North West  over the last few years .The situation with the Cumbria clubs is quite simple ;at Level 7 they were shafted by Lancashire.19 Lancs clubs declared UDI and now play in merit leagues for which there is no promotion from Division 1. So a decent team can win that league by a mile and can't go anywhere..think what that does for players with ambition .I agree that at Level 8 and below then regional leagues are viable and probably realistic .At that level nobody wants to travel.Some of the Clubs in west Cumbria get a nose bleed if they have to come east of Cockermouth!
But before everybody gets excited about closed leagues at level 7 just consider the new Cumbria 1 League 8. Teams in it play each other home and away before Christmas .It then splits into two conferences ,top 4 and bottom 4 ,who then play each other home and away then there's  a cup competition .The the top 2 play each other in a play off for promotion .So lets look at a local derby... e.g;Aspatria v Wigton .Two proud clubs with a great history .They could play against each other SIX times in a season .Great news for sponsorship ,player, and spectator interest .
And you know what the daftest thing is? The aforementioned Lancs first teams won't travel to Cumbria but their second and third teams do in the Halbro North West leagues .Not only the Seconds and thirds but the Lancs Colts teams will also play in Cumbria .
So anybody tell me the answer to that ? 
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on October 26, 2018, 12:24:59 AM
"So anybody tell me the answer to that ? "

 Err no. But it would appear to be a potential argument in trying to achieve some rapprochement with the Lancashire clubs.

Thanks for your views and I do have a lot of sympathy for the state that the Cumbria clubs are in at Level 7 and below with 8 team leagues being a bit 'stale' in the variety of clubs played.  However I have confess this sympathy would not, in my own personal view, extend to volunteering Durham & Northumberland leagues to merge with Cumbria. 
Nothing personal but the travelling is just too much compared to what we are used to.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on October 26, 2018, 06:46:39 AM
Iím not against the top 3/4 Cumbrian sides being included at level 7, leaving level 8 and below still At Cumbria and DN only
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Smoggie on October 26, 2018, 08:13:56 AM
Iím not against the top 3/4 Cumbrian sides being included at level 7, leaving level 8 and below still At Cumbria and DN only

Sensible. You're probably only looking at Keswick, Aspatria and Wigton anyway - hardly serious travel from the NE.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Teessidewire on October 26, 2018, 09:03:45 AM
Simply canít agree. Problem 1, you have to accommodate these teams, if weíre looking to reduce the number of games AND accommodate these 3 teams, then almost half of D and N 1 gets relegated. Problem 2. We have enough problem with Clubs trying to get players to travel North of the Tyne, or South of the Tess, so getting players to go over the A66 will create major problems. Problem 3, it creates another split in the leagues and why on earth should we inherit a problemthat Lancs and Cheshire canít solve. Problem 4, what happens after the first season when the top side in the Cumbria Level 8 gets promoted? We are just creating a problem, not solving one.
I thought we were looking at reducing travel, not adding to it.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 26, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
I wasnít aware there is a specific aim of reducing travel.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on October 26, 2018, 10:20:06 AM
Simply canít agree. Problem 1, you have to accommodate these teams, if weíre looking to reduce the number of games AND accommodate these 3 teams, then almost half of D and N 1 gets relegated. Problem 2. We have enough problem with Clubs trying to get players to travel North of the Tyne, or South of the Tess, so getting players to go over the A66 will create major problems. Problem 3, it creates another split in the leagues and why on earth should we inherit a problemthat Lancs and Cheshire canít solve. Problem 4, what happens after the first season when the top side in the Cumbria Level 8 gets promoted? We are just creating a problem, not solving one.
I thought we were looking at reducing travel, not adding to it.

Teessidewire - Pretty spot on analysis.  There will be variations in travel time depending on actual journey but for the most you are looking at about 2 hours.

Atilla - "I wasnít aware there is a specific aim of reducing travel". Travel time for Lancashire clubs is what has caused their breakaway and the RFU review
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Teessidewire on October 26, 2018, 10:35:43 AM
If anyone has been to Aspatria, itís a bloody awful journey. Iím afraid that times have changed and people have different priorities, we either adapt or we slowly but surely fade away.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 26, 2018, 10:48:02 AM
Simply canít agree. Problem 1, you have to accommodate these teams, if weíre looking to reduce the number of games AND accommodate these 3 teams, then almost half of D and N 1 gets relegated. Problem 2. We have enough problem with Clubs trying to get players to travel North of the Tyne, or South of the Tess, so getting players to go over the A66 will create major problems. Problem 3, it creates another split in the leagues and why on earth should we inherit a problemthat Lancs and Cheshire canít solve. Problem 4, what happens after the first season when the top side in the Cumbria Level 8 gets promoted? We are just creating a problem, not solving one.
I thought we were looking at reducing travel, not adding to it.

Teessidewire - Pretty spot on analysis.  There will be variations in travel time depending on actual journey but for the most you are looking at about 2 hours.

Atilla - "I wasnít aware there is a specific aim of reducing travel". Travel time for Lancashire clubs is what has caused their breakaway and the RFU review
Yes, i'm aware of that. But that is a specific regional issue that was ongoing for 2-3 years and finally kicked off at the end of last season.
Comment from a Penrith member shows it was Cumbria equally to blame for their predicament.

If clubs don't want to travel, they can willingly withdraw from the National leagues and play kickabout friendlies against local, like minded clubs. I doubt they'll have any sort of meaningful fixture list though.
Therefore the league structure is the only real option.

Trying to arrange the leagues into small local areas to accomodate the snowflakes who won't travel is doomed to failure. There are areas where a cluster of teams are all strong, others where they are less so. Should a strong team fail to gain promotion at the expense of a team in a weaker league?
Small regional also only works for one season.

Travel is a necessity. Funny how the same lads who moan about it think nothing of jumping on a train or the metro to go on a p*ss up.

As the Penrith chap highlighted, if the Cumbria/Cheshire/Lancs 2nds/3rds can travel to play each other then surely the 1st teams can. That suggests to me, cynic that i am, there is more to their problems than we are being told.
Interesting how he also pointed out how their County cup  competition is, like most other counties, dead in the water.

Some may already have seen it, but someone has posted a Google map of all the Northern clubs from Level 5 down. It certainly highlights geographical clusters, but also how if some clubs in our region get their own way and demand local leagues, many other clubs would be left out on a limb like the Cumbrian clubs.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1tkEQbaJiNAQGG07gFZ-Yy7yqwlU&ll=54.33537649109745%2C-1.6874193032176663&z=9

There is no easy solution and comments across both this and the Yorkshire board show any change is going to end in more conflict.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: No. 6 to Middlegate on October 26, 2018, 10:53:38 AM
"There is no easy solution and comments across both this and the Yorkshire board show any change is going to end in more conflict."

It might not be in favour with all but leaving the DN leagues as they are is my preferred option. 
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 26, 2018, 10:55:44 AM
"There is no easy solution and comments across both this and the Yorkshire board show any change is going to end in more conflict."

It might not be in favour with all but leaving the DN leagues as they are is my preferred option.
I agree.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Teessidewire on October 26, 2018, 11:54:55 AM
"There is no easy solution and comments across both this and the Yorkshire board show any change is going to end in more conflict."

It might not be in favour with all but leaving the DN leagues as they are is my preferred option.
Absolutely right.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on October 26, 2018, 12:27:48 PM
Yes I can see the dreaded level transfer could drop down another level again. Redcar to Aspatria is a canny day out! Just to show I put my money where my mouth is.....my game on Saturday is Aspatria v Hawcoat Park!
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Badgerbear77 on October 26, 2018, 02:24:44 PM
I really do have sympathy for the cumbria clubs... i think lancashire have been pretty selfish in creating this problem after many years of that being the structure... players... and coaches make  commitment based on the structure.. if you play national level rugby you make a decision to commit to travel. Players have a limited capacity to play these days... its the way the world is now... like it or loathe it. I fail.to see why durham and northumberland clubs should suffer to prop up an issue elsewhere.... or do we act completely selfishly and opt for merit leagues as per lancashire? And if yorkshire clubs are so up for travelling and as they clearly have larger resources....lump cumbria in with them. You have toncut your cloth based on what you can do... unfortunately i dont think DN clubs are in a position to help cumbria here
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Mugsy on October 26, 2018, 04:45:05 PM
Just a tiny point which I confess adds nowt much to the meat of this thread, but it's the third time I've seen reference to the supposedly horrible travel to Aspatria on this forum. I just want to point out that I pass the town twice a week on my travels and it is not actually on the dark side of the moon, and you don't have to cross the Arctic Tundra to get there.
I do acknowledge that it's a pain in the arse from Teesside if your driver makes the mistake of coming off the M6 at the junction after Penrith and taking you on a snorefest tour of Cumbrian 'C' roads, rather than coming off just North of Carlisle to stay on the arteries.
For those clubs in the northern half of DN's area, it's basically a two-road direct drive West. A69 Carlisle, A596 Aspatria.
A comfortable, easy 1.5 to 2-hour drive.
Before league Rugby, many Tyneside clubs had Egremont, Wigton and ''Spiatri'' on their fixture list every season and thoroughly enjoyed the trips. At Ryton we also had Vickers Barrow - now that's a proper trek.
After the leagues were formed, Northern and City played both the neighbouring clubs of Wigton and Aspatria home and away for several seasons and looked forward to the relatively short coach trips!
 I know that the Cumbrian clubs find the Lancastrian stance almost laughable. After all, they only had to travel North three times a season, whereas Keswick, Aspatria and Wigton had to make the opposite journey almost every other week!
The ramifications have already been felt in terms of player retention - I watched Cockermouth turn Aspatria over a few weeks ago in the new Cumbria 1 league, which was an unthinkable result only last season.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: redredwine on October 26, 2018, 08:10:19 PM
Well my stone in the water certainly created a few ripples .I have to confess I /we don't know the answer and I pity the poor guy who has to make the judgment .Certainly our stance is that Level 8 should be regionalised but for to have a local teams only at level 7 and not exposed to a wider geographical spread is going to make the step up difficult.All I was making the point of is that the more introverted and narrow based the leagues,whether in the North East or North West the worse the quality will become ,not just for players but also for match day revenue.It's as simple as this ,if you want to progress then you have to accept you have to travel.For the last ten years or more Penrith have been up and down the M6 and M1.If players didn't want to play at that level then they wouldn't do it .Lancashire's actions are denying clubs that opportunity,just make sure you don't look at the short term and wonder why in a few years time you're sick of playing the same teams week in/week out .
Anyway ,as my name would suggest..it's wine o'clock ;   ::) ::)
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 26, 2018, 08:30:36 PM
Well my stone in the water certainly created a few ripples .I have to confess I /we don't know the answer and I pity the poor guy who has to make the judgment .Certainly our stance is that Level 8 should be regionalised but for to have a local teams only at level 7 and not exposed to a wider geographical spread is going to make the step up difficult.All I was making the point of is that the more introverted and narrow based the leagues,whether in the North East or North West the worse the quality will become ,not just for players but also for match day revenue.It's as simple as this ,if you want to progress then you have to accept you have to travel.For the last ten years or more Penrith have been up and down the M6 and M1.If players didn't want to play at that level then they wouldn't do it .Lancashire's actions are denying clubs that opportunity,just make sure you don't look at the short term and wonder why in a few years time you're sick of playing the same teams week in/week out .
Anyway ,as my name would suggest..it's wine o'clock ;   ::) ::)
The irony of it is, the Lancashire clubs, having forced the split, haven't reduced their travelling - apart from the odd trip to Cumbria. They've now lost some of their local derbies.

It would seem some of them didn't do their homework.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Renegade on October 26, 2018, 10:36:10 PM
Well Said Mugsy, you refer to Vickers Barrow, that is Aspatriaís opponents tomorrow in my game tomorrow. They are now known as Hawcoat Park and I refereed both sides at their home grounds last season.

I agree with the travel argument also, I refereed Barney last week and it took an hour and ten minutes to get there from mine. Itís about one hour forty to Aspatria so not massively different.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Smoggie on October 26, 2018, 11:25:17 PM
Well my stone in the water certainly created a few ripples .I have to confess I /we don't know the answer and I pity the poor guy who has to make the judgment .Certainly our stance is that Level 8 should be regionalised but for to have a local teams only at level 7 and not exposed to a wider geographical spread is going to make the step up difficult.All I was making the point of is that the more introverted and narrow based the leagues,whether in the North East or North West the worse the quality will become ,not just for players but also for match day revenue.It's as simple as this ,if you want to progress then you have to accept you have to travel.For the last ten years or more Penrith have been up and down the M6 and M1.If players didn't want to play at that level then they wouldn't do it .Lancashire's actions are denying clubs that opportunity,just make sure you don't look at the short term and wonder why in a few years time you're sick of playing the same teams week in/week out .
Anyway ,as my name would suggest..it's wine o'clock ;   ::) ::)

Totally agree; the more introverted we become the poorer the standard. If you want to play, follow or administer rugby you must be prepared to travel. Hope your glass was agreeable RRW. Saturday tomorrow gents.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Badgerbear77 on October 26, 2018, 11:33:41 PM
Thing is... it may only be 30 mins extra but thats an hour in round terms .. a club that has 2 teams or even one team might struggle for numbers for that extra bit of time needed... plus who pays this additional petrol? Most lads convoy in cars... money is tighter these days... when i played most work was weekdays though shifts were in place then so sometimes i couldnt train.. i was single and weekends were my own. Now lads work patterns are different and i genuinely believe time away is harder for players. Coaching now at a local level is ok time wise but whole days travelling with a young family with weekend work and a kid i only see on a weekend is a much bigger commitment and would impact my ability to do this quite a lot... doesnt make me a snowflake... i love my rugby and give a lot of my time to it. Travel is for the lads who want it but thats not to say there isnt room for lads who want to play closer to home because their circumstances dictate it. The alternative is to force players and coaches into more travel in league terms and potentially lose players who simply can not make that commitment
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Smoggie on October 26, 2018, 11:48:24 PM
Thing is... it may only be 30 mins extra but thats an hour in round terms .. a club that has 2 teams or even one team might struggle for numbers for that extra bit of time needed... plus who pays this additional petrol? Most lads convoy in cars... money is tighter these days... when i played most work was weekdays though shifts were in place then so sometimes i couldnt train.. i was single and weekends were my own. Now lads work patterns are different and i genuinely believe time away is harder for players. Coaching now at a local level is ok time wise but whole days travelling with a young family with weekend work and a kid i only see on a weekend is a much bigger commitment and would impact my ability to do this quite a lot... doesnt make me a snowflake... i love my rugby and give a lot of my time to it. Travel is for the lads who want it but thats not to say there isnt room for lads who want to play closer to home because their circumstances dictate it. The alternative is to force players and coaches into more travel in league terms and potentially lose players who simply can not make that commitment


Money tighter than the 70's?
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Badgerbear77 on October 27, 2018, 06:58:52 AM
In some ways yes... The 70s was a time of one worker families... now both have to work. There wasnt as much to spend money on.... Employment was more certain and there was no such thing as a zero hours contract
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: Teessidewire on October 27, 2018, 11:22:10 AM
Itís already a problem getting a competitive team to travel at the moment, times have changed so much. Hereís an example, I was a Police Officer and 30 years ago was often able to get time off to play, then for 7 years I travelled with the first team in the old North One as team manager. Again I was able to get time off, or get up early off nights, but even then it was something of a struggle. If I were to try that now I simply eoyldnít Have a hope in hell.
D and N one isnít the greatest, but itís also not the worst and I actually believe that the standard has risen in the last couple of years. If players and clubs really want to travel, itís all there at the next League up.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: TheGuv on October 27, 2018, 11:35:47 AM
And boom goes the dynamite!

Totally agree. If you want the travel, hospitality, more league fixtures etc etc. Get promoted...

I think level 7 and below should be structured how the CBS and its clubs want to structure it. Be it fewer teams, less games or whatever. However, if youíre promoted you accept the RFU guidelines of 26 games and everything that goes with it.
Title: Re: Dreaded League Reshuffles.
Post by: atilla on October 27, 2018, 12:46:46 PM
And boom goes the dynamite!

Totally agree. If you want the travel, hospitality, more league fixtures etc etc. Get promoted...

I think level 7 and below should be structured how the CBS and its clubs want to structure it. Be it fewer teams, less games or whatever. However, if youíre promoted you accept the RFU guidelines of 26 games and everything that goes with it.
But level 7 is already structured pretty much how you describe, albeit with 14 teams.
At level 7 you are still within County/Region borders..

There is already a mechanism in place for teams who wish to play fewer matches, odd how they choose not to use it.