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Author Topic: Legacy.  (Read 5545 times)

Offline davebarnes

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 03:40:01 PM »
Maybe it has something to do with the constant watering down of the game.

RFU are driven more by fear of litigation and selling the product to the tele, than providing the game people want to play.

I'm constantly amazed by penalties and yellow cards given for trivial incidents that would have been ignored or shrugged off in the not so distant past.
Bring back the ruck.

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2017, 01:31:59 PM »
The most ludicrous of the recent(ish) directives is the one applied to ensuring the safety of a player catching a high ball.
Let me give an example: Scotland V Wales 2015. Finn Russell, with eyes fixed on a steepling kick, is standing on his own 22 with arms out ready to catch the ball. Dan Biggar, running hard toward Russell, takes off from 3 yards away, collides with Russell's shoulders and somersaults, landing on his shoulder and injuring HIMSELF.
Russell is yellow carded, and commentators say he was lucky not to get a red.
RIDICULOUS!!
Who was to blame for Biggar's injury? Who was reckless? Clearly it was 100% the fault of Biggar!
I have seen 2 almost identical incidents in the Premiership in the last 3 weeks, both red cards for the poor sod who simply stood his ground.
Of course we don't want players taking away the legs of those jumping, as Eliot Daley so crassly did against Fiji, but I disagree with the refs having no discretion to decide whether there was any malice or recklessness. As an ex-fullback who spent years fielding bombs, I think this is lunacy. If you stand your ground to receive a kick and some idiot is coming at you through the air with their knees the height of your face, then tough shit if they get hurt! THEY should be carded!
Dave, I suspect you are referring to cards being issued for players clearing out rucks or tackling without wrapping the arms. It's a contentious one that - I don't like to see people flying into rucks with heads and shoulders, deliberately trying to hurt the opposition, but I agree that some of the recent incidents have been kneejerk over-reaction to borderline events. I suspect it will calm down in time.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 02:07:03 PM by Mugsy »

Offline davebarnes

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2017, 03:19:29 PM »
All of the above tbh mate.

The idea of basing decisions on outcome rather than intent is the biggest bugbear.

To be fair to the RFU, I think the biggest problem is a societal one and not limited to rugby.

We are in a time where everything is someone else's fault and people are happy to sue for the slightest reason.

I'd love to see a return to the old attitudes where you'd buy your opposite number a pint after a little altercation, rather than feigning injury and ringing a solicitor.

Rugby seems to have forgotten that it's a contact sport and that some people are happy to accept the risk of injury.
Bring back the ruck.

Offline davebarnes

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2017, 04:55:46 PM »
Quote
Ball-carriers must be careful that they fend off tacklers legally and do not strike opponents.

Bloody hell, you can't even hand-off now either! Bring out the bibs.
Bring back the ruck.

Offline Renegade

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2017, 07:36:31 PM »
The topic of "the head" and "concussion" is rightly the hot potato of our time. In the past during amateur days the tackle was so much different, now players are huge, more powerful and they target the ball in the tackle so the classic low down leg wrap tackles are less favoured.

Swinging arms and the tackle area becoming higher inch by inch means the head is now very much in the target area, the whole idea of the sanctions, penalty/yellow/red card is to deter the tackler from going so high so lowering the contact area.

If the head/concussion is not handled correctly we won't have a game because nobody will play in truth. If technique and attitude to the tackle alters then the sanctions won't be needed.

Offline local player

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2017, 09:08:28 PM »
With you Renegade but the RFU need to look at themselves as they make the rules.

Rucking-doesnt happen now so no contest there really is there.......

Scrums at the higher level are a joke-how can pros not keep it up when old/young/poor players at local level can, wonder why?

The dump tackle-another joke as far as im concered-note this is different from a head spear.  Late tackles have hurt me more in the past then be picked & dumped)

So the best way to win the ball is put a big hit in........now you cant lift & drive back (like i was taught) dont want a ruck do we so go for the smash........

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2017, 11:16:41 PM »
Hmmm I share some of your concerns, but there are myths and misinterpretations regarding the law directives.
The scrum is a complete mess and has to be addressed as a matter of urgency. I prefer to record televised games so I can FF the anti-spectator collapse-reset-collapse-reset rubbish.
However, you can't compare the sheer brute force combat of professional front row war with six fat lads leaning on each other at a local club match. (Apologies for the tongue-in-cheek gross exaggeration but you hopefully see my point).
 'Lift and dump' tackles are still well within the laws and something I love to see, provided the carrier doesn't tip the legs beyond the horizontal. That's fine with me.
The hand-off is alive and well, I'm not sure why you think otherwise.
Rucking remains an integral part of our game and the techniques thereof probably occupy the thoughts of coaches more than any other aspect. What I guess you mean is, rucking out (stamping on) players deliberately lying over the ball. I absolutely understand why older Rugby men want to see this reinstated, but I actually don't think it would add anything to the game as it is now. The refs are very hot on players lying on the wrong side of the ball. In the modern game penalties have become far more valuable than quick ball at the ruck, which is why you see the tackler being held down, trapped in a ball-blocking position by the attacking side rather than being rucked or pulled out. Most are desperate to get out of there - much more than we ever were - not because they might get kicked, but because they might get penalised or even carded.
I don't know about you, dear Rugger Bugger colleague, but I suspect that if you are honest you'll say the same - the prospect of receiving a good shoeing never once put me off killing the ball if that was what was required at the time.
I think the old mantra you still hear in defence of kicking prone players: ''they didn't do it a second time'' is bollocks, I'm afraid. We did, We ALL did! It wasn't the deterrent we old farts like to imagine. We've discussed why kids are no longer brought to the game by their parents; does anyone really believe that the return of good old-fashioned rucking would encourage youth recruitment? Soz Barnesy!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 10:50:44 AM by Mugsy »

Offline rock25

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2017, 11:48:09 AM »
Albeit there's not been too many replies in this thread, I think it's interesting (so far) that all that have posted agree that leagues are too big and too many league games are having an adverse effect.

Unfortunately, the RFU backtracked on their proposal to reduce league fixtures - Yorkshire being particularly uncomplimentary. However, it would be interesting, if the Durham and Northumberland Rugby Unions decided to trial it themselves for a season or two. After all, we only feed into North One East (Level 6) anyway. Does it really matter how it's done as long as 1 or 2 clubs go up? If the CBs and their clubs wanted to give it a go, surely they could try it?

Below is one way the leagues could be set up, 10 teams per league (40 clubs across the 4 divisions - perfect eh?!), 18 league games per season. We've already played 11 in DN1, so that gives you an idea as to how many weekends you could use for free weekends/cup games/friendlies etc so long as you play at least 9 league games (half of the league season) before Xmas.

The reduced league size would presumably make the leagues more competitive and clubs from DN1 would have no issue playing the stronger clubs from DN2 in friendlies as they're currently already in the same league (e.g.  Gatesehad v Stockton) and DN2 clubs against higher DN3 etc.

Anyway, at current standings this would be the league structure:

Durham/Northumberland Division One
Barnard Castle   
South Shields Westoe      
Northern   
Middlesbrough   
Consett      
Horden and Peterlee   
Hartlepool Rovers      
Hartlepool   
Gateshead   
Gosforth   
   
Durham/Northumberland Division Two
Stockton      
Novocastrians      
Medicals      
Ryton      
Redcar   
Ponteland   
Whitley Bay Rockcliff      
Bishop Auckland      
Sunderland   
North Shields   

Durham/Northumberland Division Three:
Darlington   
Whitby      
Winlaton Vulcans   
Ashington   
South Shields   
Sedgefield   
Blyth      
Seaton Carew   
Richmondshire   
Newton Aycliffe


Durham/Northumberland Division Four   
Wallsend   
Yarm
Houghton      
Seghill      
Hartlepool B.B.O.B.      
Jarrovians      
Chester-Le-Street   
West Hartlepool TDSOB   
Seaham   
Prudhoe & Stocksfield   

It would be interesting to read people's thoughts on this and a debate to ensue; rather than us going through our usual weekly motions of picking a home or away team to win  ;)


Be interesting to see how the these leagues would look now the season is over as this is by far the best suggestion for league restructure and would help with the issue of teams coming back and forth into the DN set up this would be even more suitable as teams could slot in leagues where required and could prevent teams leaving the league structure. Looking at BBOB they played 21 games last year so it would be hoped they could play 18 competitively. Also teams from social leagues may be encouraged to join or at least play teams in the league structure on the copious amounts of free Saturdays that there will be.

Offline TheGuv

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2017, 01:36:36 PM »
Thanks Rock25. I genuniely do think this is the way forward but unfortunately some people think an extra weekend's bar taking is more important!

If it was to start this season, like you asked. It would look like below (11 clubs in DN1. I've used the assumption that BBOB would still be in the league structure. If not you would shift the bottom team down a league. I also wasn't sure where to put Acklam!)

Durham/Northumberland 1
Durham City      
Westoe         
Barnard Castle      
Consett      
Middlesbrough         
Horden and Peterlee         
Gateshead      
Stockton      
Gosforth      
Medicals
Hartlepool Rovers

Durham/Northumberland 2
Novocastrians      
Hartlepool      
Ryton   
Redcar         
Ponteland         
Whitley Bay Rockcliff   
Whitby   
Darlington
Acklam?
Bishop Auckland   

Durham/Northumberland 3
Sunderland   
North Shields   
Winlaton Vulcans      
Ashington      
Sedgefield      
Blyth         
South Shields      
Seaton Carew      
Newton Aycliffe      
Richmondshire   

Durham/Northumberland 4
Yarm         
Wallsend   
Houghton         
Seghill         
Chester-Le-Street         
Prudhoe & Stocksfield         
Seaham      
Jarrovians      
West Hartlepool TDSOB         
Hartlepool B.B.O.B.      

Offline rock25

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2017, 01:58:17 PM »
Looks the most sensible option and in regards to bar takings it would be interesting to know just how much clubs would loose if there was a couple less league fixtures? not many clubs stay around for a beer. Maybe clubs are just happy to do what is dictated by county but Rock and many others are exploring other ways to generate money rather than hoping/relying on a few lads sticking around and buying a couple of pints.

If your suggestion was ever implemented clubs could use their free weekends more wisely for example host 2 teams from one club therefore guaranteeing 35+ players in the bar and build good relationships with clubs and thus return the favour later in season..everyone loves a bus trip. Or even create more localised competitions eg North Tyneside cup (Rock, N shields, Park 2XV, Wallsend...possibly Ravens or Novos if yous scrape the boundaries) or even smaller format comps or shorter games like Ryton used to do with their pre season tournament.

just a few ideas that most clubs could easily host and would probably generate more profit then a couple extra league fixtures where the bar probably sells more soft drinks than pints.

Offline Slam

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2017, 09:52:16 AM »
All of those reasons make sense to me.

Particularly with all this Acklam and Blyth nonsense (whiche seems to happen yearly),it would be best if we made a change in this direction

Offline Prioryman

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2017, 12:08:20 PM »
I read your proposed league structures with interest and note that Guisborough doesn't get a mention.  We were devastated by serious injuries to key players and unavailabilities last season when we were hoping to consolidate.  As a result we are coming down to either DN1 or Y1, who knows.  Before leagues most of our fixtures were with DN clubs , so we opted for DN leagues when the structure was set up and counted those clubs as our friends.  We are obviously easily forgotten  !  We would still prefer DN  leagues.  I suspect some of you don't realise how long it takes to get to Hull, Doncaster, Keighley and the like.  Like Texas , Yorkshire is a mighty big place !  If we are in Y1 next season, because of level transfer, we will face trips such as those and play against some teams who pay players, one way or the other.

Offline TheGuv

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2017, 12:20:15 PM »
I most certainly didn't forget Guisborough! In fact I'd say it's been my favourite place to visit in recent years.

However, it seems incredibly likely that you will be jettisoned off to Y1 unfortunately. Unless it's Middlesbrough that takes your place instead?

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2017, 12:44:01 PM »
Guisborough is a great trip!
We played there a few years ago and despite the icy gale force wind blowing across the pitch, the mud, the dressing room with no door, no light and a broken heater, the cold showers and someone nicking our practice balls, we went into town and had a fantastic night!

Offline local player

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Re: Legacy.
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2017, 05:24:53 PM »
Im with the guv on the league sizes........

Smaller leagues, fixture secs wont allow the weekend to have no game (bar take etc) & will arrange a friendly against local teams.

Everything isnt about the 1stXV