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Author Topic: Italian Tactics  (Read 1102 times)

Offline Renegade

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Italian Tactics
« on: February 26, 2017, 03:51:23 PM »
If the tactics Italt used are allowed to become common place the game is finished.

They can't win fairly so they use the rules to create chaos, similar to not competing at the line out. The game might as well become touch rugby that way nobody will get hurt or lose and the worst injury you'll get is a snapped finger nail.

Offline TheGuv

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 04:27:03 PM »
World Rugby will just change the law so that the tackle becomes the offside line.

Perhaps they should also focus on other issues with the game...you know like everything at the scrum?

Offline Badgerbear77

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 07:45:25 PM »
Tactical genius from.o shea
Rugby is for everyone, not just the chosen few

Offline No. 6 to Middlegate

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 07:57:13 PM »
In what circumstances could Italy have taken it even further and actually gone for the ball rather than just waving their arms about?

Offline Renegade

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2017, 08:49:48 PM »

Law 15.6.d)
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

That is why the Italians didn't try and lay the ball and only advanced to block the passage between the halfbacks. If they had gone for the ball via "the gate" they would have engaged at least one England player and that would've constituted a ruck which they were avoiding.

It was plain from the tactic the referee was aware of their intentions, did he not speak with his superiors? All this has highlighted is a grey area in the laws. On many occasions there was one Italian on his feet in contact as an assistant tackler who then withdrew rather than compete for the ball, if he'd called ruck immediately that would've made the game a bit more familiar.

What irritated me ore than anything was the fact that even when he called ruck the 3 officials still allowed the Italians to stand offside, this happened regularly, I think the whole tactic confused England and the officials. Scotland will be furious, England will now be well focused on that game to get this debacle out of their system.

Offline local player

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2017, 09:13:55 PM »

Law 15.6.d)
At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.

That is why the Italians didn't try and lay the ball and only advanced to block the passage between the halfbacks. If they had gone for the ball via "the gate" they would have engaged at least one England player and that would've constituted a ruck which they were avoiding.

It was plain from the tactic the referee was aware of their intentions, did he not speak with his superiors? All this has highlighted is a grey area in the laws. On many occasions there was one Italian on his feet in contact as an assistant tackler who then withdrew rather than compete for the ball, if he'd called ruck immediately that would've made the game a bit more familiar.

What irritated me ore than anything was the fact that even when he called ruck the 3 officials still allowed the Italians to stand offside, this happened regularly, I think the whole tactic confused England and the officials. Scotland will be furious, England will now be well focused on that game to get this debacle out of their system.

I think it was brilliant planning by Oshea-didnt like it but hey i dont like a lot of the rules (i also think it makes it very hard for refs)

problem for me was-tackle made 3 men (or more from both sides)-this is a ruck? or does someone have to join?  Anyway when he called ruck he then waved them back-why-you either are offside or you arent!!


Offline Renegade

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2017, 09:46:43 PM »
How can a ruck form. Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed.

As referees we are encouraged to talk to players to try and prevent penalties, I think today would have been a good day to penalise them. I personally don't like any form of manipulating the laws in an "unsporting" way. It happened for a while at the line out when teams wouldn't compete similar to today, luckily that has mainly stopped. Rugby is a contact sport and should remain that way, plenty of changes have been made to make it safer but today was a joke!

Offline Neil Roseberry

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2017, 10:06:37 PM »
l found it very fustrating to watch and will happily walk away from watching a game if it degenerates into that farce. Credit to the Italians for their spoiling tactics - stopped us scoring the 60-70+ points we were all anticipating beforehand. However, if thats the best they've got to offer l'd rather see Georgia or Romania replace them.

Offline No. 6 to Middlegate

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2017, 10:30:17 PM »
Thanks Renegade.

With the law about moving the ball by hand to the back of a maul from the lineout I am surprised more teams don't compete.  Presumably the team winning the lineout can't drive against a non engaged opposition as it would be accidental offside?

If there is no engagement and thus no maul can a defender come round and try and steal the ball?  Similar question if a ball is caught from a kick in open play and a few team mates join in to protect the ball but no opposition actually make contact to form a maul. 

Offline Renegade

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2017, 07:07:48 AM »
You're correct on both points.

To be honest the laws of the game are written to make sense of the competition and contact, if one team refuses to engage then it makes it practically impossible to manage as a player or referee.

I can see World Rugby now adding that once someone is tackled then the offside line is at the hindmost foot as in the ruck and mail.

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2017, 10:02:13 AM »
The Eye-tie tactic of dancing round to the 'wrong' side of the tackle to block the scrummy's pass is nothing new. Nathan Hughes did it himself, for Wasps a few weeks ago. I'm willing to bet that's where O'Shea got the idea from. I said in a previous post they may well ambush us with a stifling game but even I didn't see this one coming!
I was shouting hopelessly at the TV, telling the English forwards to play 'corridor rugby'. Simply pick the ball up and blast forward, offloading or fast rucking down a narrow channel. They'll soon commit and stop poncing about on our side!
I was relieved to see after Jones/Borthwick had spoken to them at half time that they began to do exactly that, but disappointed that the players themselves had failed to recognise the need to do so and instantly adapt on the hoof.
Another thing I would've like to have seen was someone to go and stand right in the face of an Italian blocker and be the receiver of a pass from Care. The blocker would instantly be interfering with play and this would force a decision from Ref Poite.
I've never forgiven Poite for siding with the cheating Australian scrummagers against England in the RWC. He penalised Marler repeatedly for simply staying square and standing his ground whilst the Aussie front 3 pushed at 45 degrees. I felt he should have been downgraded for that gross misjudgement of who was to blame. Nigel Owens would never have been conned like that and the nonsense would have stopped after one scrum.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:26:46 AM by Mugsy »

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 01:04:43 AM »
Having watched the game again at home without the racket and distractions of the club and with the benefit of replay, here are my thoughts:
I had a go at Poite about that RWC debacle and I still feel strongly about that, but credit where it's due; in a complex and challenging game he was just about faultless and showed a lot of character. Renegade, I looked for times when Poite called a ruck and still allowed 'the tactic', and it never happened.
One of the touch judges, plus all of the tv commentary team, failed to judge Parisse's athletic leap from in touch to infield whilst catching the ball as being IN TOUCH! Sequence of events:
1. Standing in touch;
2. Jumping in the air;
3. Catching the ball;
4. Landing infield.
That's out!!!
You may think that's a petty observation but it led directly to the Italian try.
The England forwards did in fact identify the need to drive the ball straight forward about ten minutes before half-time. Unfortunately what they didn't do at that stage was get narrow in numbers and flood the channel; they continued to stand conventionally wider for the next phase.
Ben Youngs was a different player this week when he came on. It looked to me like he has been made very aware of his failings in terms of passing speed. No delay, no lifting the ball to the inside shoulder, no step. Out it went off the deck.
Well thank goodness for that and long may it continue.
Teo is the real deal at centre. I watched him carefully to see if he's just another Mike Tindal/Brad Barrett/Jamie Roberts Crash-test robot. No, he's not. He has speed, balance, solid defence, vision and passes the ball properly.
Elliot Daly is fast becoming an all-round world-class player who could play in any back position at international level. Add to that his siege-gun goal kicking when required, and you have an absolute gem of a player.

The next round is going to be absolutely fascinating for all sorts of reasons!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 09:20:57 AM by Mugsy »

Offline Badgerbear77

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 08:45:34 AM »
The thing is.. As much as Italys tactics spoilt the game as a spectacle... I didnt like it. Its a results business and Italy are expected to win games and their very existence in the championship is under question. They need to do something... Had they tried to play rugby against england they could have got another panning.. 60 points  smashings at this level wont help them so Connor O'Shea I commend you for having the cajunas to try something different. They tried something and it worked for 40 mins... fair play to them. I also think the Hartley and Haskell brains trust would struggle with the tactical side, being bosh lads first and foremost. So the message should be coming through the waterboys and physios and sidelines from Jones... not like he cant get a message down.

Still we worked it out in the end and ran in tries reasonably easily 2nd half so no one will worry about this after the next 2 games... but Scotland chasing a triple crown and Ireland looking back to their best after being poor first week - especially with Sexton back in the puppet master role will be England and Jones biggest test to date... we cant get away with being sub standard in those games or we will lose.  Still fancy England to do it.

When this champs is done I RELSIH the lions debate, think the 6 nations has highlighted to me we are a bit behind the All Blacks in the front rows but we have class and genuine strong competition in every other area of the field!
Rugby is for everyone, not just the chosen few

Offline stuartdm

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 05:18:06 PM »
One of the touch judges, plus all of the tv commentary team, failed to judge Parisse's athletic leap from in touch to infield whilst catching the ball as being IN TOUCH! Sequence of events:
1. Standing in touch;
2. Jumping in the air;
3. Catching the ball;
4. Landing infield.
That's out!!!
You may think that's a petty observation but it led directly to the Italian try.


Yes, I thought that at the time, but assumed the assistant referee knew the law.

Offline Renegade

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Re: Italian Tactics
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 06:46:29 PM »
I think all 3 officials were confused with all the bodies in unusual places.