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Author Topic: Ask the Ref?!  (Read 5305 times)

Offline whitbian

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 07:48:58 PM »
Returning to the ruck debate, I feel the main point there is still being missed or misinterpreted here. If a tackle is made and a defender who was not involved in the tackle gets hands on the ball while supporting his own body weight before anyone from the attacking side engages him in contact, then he is entitled to stay on the ball, even after he IS engaged, and the tackled player must release.

Answer - if you are first there at the breakdown from either the defensive or attacking side you much be positive. Just putting your hands onto the ball will/should not get you a penalty. I would class this as milking it and just allow you to get cleared out. If you get your hands onto the ball and try and play it or secure it the ball must travel up towards the sky. If you cannot do it isolation pen will take place and blame the tackler for holding on

Previous posts have given the impression that at the moment that a player from each team make contact over the ball, everyone must get their hands off the ball. Not so. I believe this is the clarification Slam was looking for. However I suspect, Slam, that as you are being penalised consistently, your understanding of the sequence of events is the problem. To bullet point it for clarity:
1. If you're involved in the tackle you must 'show the ref your hands' before going for the ball. No you don't you just have to show daylight
2. If not involved in the tackle and there before the opposition and get hands on, you can stay there as long as you're supporting your weight. But do something with the ball
3. If a competing opposition player is there before or at the same time as you, get your hands off it. or if the referee says hands off you do as you are instructed

As others have suggested, work with the ref, listen to him, ask him.
Perhaps more importantly, ask your coach at training to do a little role-play scenario in which he talks through the sequence of events at the tackle. (If I were the coach I'd consider inviting a good ref along.) Very Good!!
As a general observation, in my opinion refs at D&N level tend to allow the tackled player to hang on to the ball rather longer than we see in the Prem, where they are pinged immediately if there is even the slightest delay in the clearout. This is not a criticism, as I personally believe the laws should always favour the team in possession, and refs being trigger-happy at the tackle discourages teams from playing a running game - hence the awful kick-tennis we endure, which gives our Rugby League friends ample ammunition for mocking our code.

Hope I answered the questions for you - Breakdown is a massive part of the game and 1st man generally decides what is going to happen - decide quick but be positive!!!!

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 11:24:13 PM »
Your additions are mostly welcome as they are accurate and apart from one they add to, rather than contradict, my points. 
The only one I'd pick up on is: ''No you don't you just have to show daylight''. Okay; who is it you are showing daylight to? Answer: the ref. What do you use to show that daylight? Answer: your hands. 'Showing daylight' is the lawmakers phrase; coaching the best technique is slightly different and I'll explain why.
Coaches and refs often say it is about 'the picture' you are painting. ''Show your hands to the ref'' is a coaching phrase used at the highest levels of the game and I offer it to Slam as a way of embedding the idea into his technique at the breakdown. The trouble with 'showing daylight' as a way of thinking about it in the heat of battle is that simply lifting the hands 2mm off the tackled player for a millisecond may well feel sufficient to the jackaller, but many refs will miss the gesture or not consider it enough. A quick flash of the palms, however, will  always paint the correct picture. Next time you watch Wasps, look at how Thomas Young, Ashley Johnson, Haskell, Nathan Hughes, Daly and Gopperth go about it. The influence of George Smith is there for all to see.
Good technique to get in the habit of and a good way of phrasing that technique.

Offline whitbian

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2017, 10:41:18 AM »
How you show daylight is up to the team coach. As ref's we want clear daylight. I couldnt care if you clapped your hands, praised the lord or anything. You must allow the ball carrier to be positive first then its first man in. I do ref at a good standard. Please dont try and watch premiership rugby as coaching aids they have an agreement to show rugby as a spectacle

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2017, 11:20:58 AM »
''Please don't try and watch Premiership Rugby as coaching aids''.
As that is the exact opposite of my advice to aspiring players, referees and coaches we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm going to leave this discussion, which subsequent readers can judge for themselves. If Slam looks at this he will see advice from both a coach with ref experience and a current referee. I hope it helps him and others.
Good luck with your refereeing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 01:21:24 PM by Mugsy »

Offline Awayday fan

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 09:56:09 PM »
Just viewed a game played between Stockton RFU vs Hartlepool Rovers Heughers on youtube not a bad game  but with so many negative posts blaming the ref for all the missed tackles and dropped balls and every call against your team is incorrect. The man in the middle had a fantastic game from what I viewed, clear commands consistant and correct calls and my favorite took no c##p from the  supporters, well done that man think his name is Carl

Offline Mugsy

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2017, 01:18:33 PM »
The man in the middle had a fantastic game from what I viewed, clear commands consistant and correct calls and my favorite took no c##p from the  supporters, well done that man think his name is Carl

He's called Tony actually. Affectionately known as 'The Rat'; ex - Winlaton and Tynedale hooker and past master at pushing the boundaries of legality!!
A good lad putting something back.

Offline Awayday fan

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2017, 03:28:34 PM »
HAHA Thanks Mugsy dont no where i got carl need to get my deaf aid checked out

Offline Neil Roseberry

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2017, 11:16:17 PM »
To be fair, l can see how easy it would be to get Tony mixed up with Carl Hall (who l think you may have meant) as they do look fairly similar at a glance.

Offline Renegade

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2017, 06:12:55 PM »
Is that flat nose, no hair and pretty poor craic Neil?

(Before anyone gets on their high horse Iím good friends of both)

Offline Awayday fan

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2017, 07:12:06 PM »
Thanks for that Neil so ears ok eyes buggered think i need an mot still a good ref though


Offline Mugsy

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Re: Ask the Ref?!
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2017, 12:58:47 PM »
Although not strictly 'on subject', I want to use this thread to do something we don't see nearly enough of in our game.
I want to wholeheartedly praise a Referee!!
As I was at Murrayfield on Saturday I didn't see the other matches on the day and have since caught up with my recordings when I could.
I just watched Wales V New Zealand, and I thought Wayne Barnes was absolutely magnificent.
His positioning, communication and empathy were just about the best I have ever seen, and if I were choosing the man of the match it would have been him, because the quality of the game as a spectacle was largely due to his performance.

I have long thought Nigel Owens the best Ref in the world and still do, if only because he gets the decisions right (in my opinion) almost always. However, if I have one tiny criticism it is that he can sometimes be a little OTT in showing everyone who's boss. We all love the fact that Rugby Refs are totally in charge and are are called 'Sir' by the players, in direct contrast to football whistlers; but sometimes Nigel can be almost sneering in his bossiness.

Barnes's style is developing very differently - he smiles at the players; calls them 'mate' when explaining things; coaches the front row at scrummages, encouraging clean restarts; shouts his reading of the play to the players as it happens and is happy to have a laugh in breaks of play. 
Both sides responded very positively to this, and it certainly didn't appear to lessen his authority. Perhaps he has shown that Refs can begin to move away from the 'Headmaster and detention class' style we've probably always thought best for Rugby?
I'd be interested to read what others, particularly those who are Refs, think about the difference in styles I have highlighted.

On the subject of good Refs, I think Craig Maxwell-Keys is the stand-out young Ref; he's very impressive for such a young lad and will only get better.

Finally, it's great to see Hamish Smailes Reffing top club games. He was a cracking winger at Tynedale; a crowd favourite with searing pace, and a nice lad by all accounts. I hope he goes all the way.